Recently I made a comment that Mike felt might be worth a post (its weird how I always do what Mike suggests – you should start a cult Mike!). But basically it arose from a discussion about dividend yield (which I prefer) and dividend growth (which MoneyGardener prefers).
My comment was that given a pool of stocks that have consistenly paid an increasing dividend (this last phrase is important, so please re-read it before arguing with me), dividend yield is at the CORE of my purchasing decision. Obviously a high dividend yield because the company is in trouble and hence the price is low isn’t good (like GM), or overfocusing on a single sector because it has high yield (like me and Canadian banks) isn’t good either.
Before I go further I’ll define a few terms. By certain I mean very likely (as in, the sun will certainly rise tomorrow – there’s a small chance it won’t, but its very, very likely or Wal-mart will certainly still be in business next year). Let’s say certain is a 99.9% chance of something happening. “Less certain” is a 1-99% chance (or at least significantly lets then certain) that something is true and unlikely is a 0.01% chance of something happening (e.g. you might win on that lottery ticket you just bought, but its unlikely).
With stocks there are all sorts of numbers you can use to evaluate them (such as price, earnings, income, dividend, assets, etc, etc). Some of these numbers are reported directly, while others are derived from other numbers (for example, the dividend yield is derived from the dividend and the stock price).
Each of these numbers are certain or less certain. Price is certain (you can put an order in and buy at that price), similarly any numbers derived JUST from Price are certain (such as open price, closing price, high price, low price, average, etc, etc). Dividend is certain, its actually cash that was sent to investors (and they all can verify that they got paid). Dividend yield (a certain divided by a certain) is a certain value.
Earnings is a less certain value. Enron and their ilk get creative with their accounting in order to put the best food forward with investors. Since this is the game they’re playing, I’m more skeptical of the reported earning and anything based on them (such as income, EPS, etc). Assets equally are being reported by the accountants who have a vested interest in making them be as high as possible and are therefore “less certain”.
Some people like to buy stocks based on Price/Earnings. This is basically saying I want the company that makes the most money for the cheapest price, which is a good buying philosophy. The reason I’m not totally in love with this approach is its taking a certain value (the price) and dividing it by a less certain value (the earnings) gives you a less certain ratio. This makes the P/E ratio less certain than the dividend yield (as a method for evaluating the value of the stock).
With things like the Ghaham number, quite of a few of these less certain values seem to be incorporated into the calculation, which makes the final value very speculative, in my opinion.
Obviously if your feeling is that Enron was an oddity and that most companies are honest in their reporting of financials it would be easy to justify a different approach to buying then what I’m discussing.
Now, information is also presented from the past, present and future. The price of BMO when I bought at different points in the past were:
Date – Shares – Price
05/17/07 – 65 – $68.880
06/06/07 – 71 – $69.740
08/01/07 – 77 – $64.93
08/14/07 – 81 – $60.8
These are certain (I can show you my receipts). Please don’t be silly and argue that the price varied over the day or I’ll have to reach through my monitor and shake you like a British nanny. This is past information, which has some relevance to BMO as a company today (although I’d argue it has LESS relevance than the CURRENT price). We can also get talking about FUTURE prices of BMO, which I’d argue is unlikely to be correct if you name an exact price and less certain to be correct if you gave a range (say $0.50).
We can talk about dividend-yield which is certain, we can talk about dividend growth (based on PAST dividend-yields) which is also certain, and we can talk about FUTURE dividend growth or yield which is LESS CERTAIN because we’re basing it on a less certain future price and a less certain future dividend. When you combine two things that are less certain, the product is even less certain then either value. You can argue that price doesn’t matter after purchase (which I’ll agree with), but there’s still a fair bit of uncertainty).
Obviously if someone could give me a dividend growth value that was certain I would be very willing to purchase high growth stocks instead of high yield stocks (by high yield I’m talking BMO at 4%, not some unknown company at 11% – remember: given a pool of stocks that have consistenly paid an increasing dividend). Given that the growth is uncertain, I’m less willing to pay for the “growth” stock, when it might underperform the “yield” stock (as in the example of NA vs SLF in my comment – this wasn’t cherry picking data, I looked these two up expecting SLF to have had a higher dividend growth and just said “huh”).
I’d rather buy a stock that’s cheap because of less certain pessimism then buy a stock that’s expensive because of less certain optimism. I’d also rather pay for a certain yield then a less certain growth.
September 6, 2007 at 8:58 am
oh Mr. Cheap….I disagree with you in so many ways. which I’m sure you suspected…..it’s probably worth a post on my blog…
A few of my initial thoughts:
1. Dividend Yield is only ‘certain’ for that instant moment in time. The dividend can be cut at any time. I would argrue that the only true certainty is the stock price, and dividends that have already been paid.
2. It’s very difficult to generalize when it comes to high dividend and dividend growing stocks. Take Rothmans, they’ve paid the same $0.30 since November of 2005. The stock currently yields 5.3%.
3. If you are investing solely for the dividends that you will receive, then I can see why it would be tempting to select stocks with current higher yields. I invest for dividends, dividend growth, as well as share appreciation over the long term.
4. If you are using yield alone to determine when a stock is cheap, then I can see why it would be tempting to select stocks with current higher yields. I determine a stock’s value by using discounted cash flow which takes in to account future earnings (estimation) and future P/E. I believe disregarding earnings growth whether it be past or projected is a mistake when it comes to selecting a stock. Everything (dividends, dividend growth, share appreciation) relies on earnings growth.
5. Deciding between Sun Life Financial (SLF) which is a global insurance company with signifcant operations in India, and National Bank (NA) which is a Quebec- based Bank with asset backed commercial paper exposure, because one company has a higher dividend growth rate is oversimpifying things…I dont’ care how you slice it…
September 6, 2007 at 9:18 am
MG: I did suspect, and am happy to have fished out more of the reasons you have a different view of things (I’ll look forward to you post on the subject!).
I’d agree with #1 (but as I mentioned, I think a specific growth is far less certain then sustaining the current dividend for the companies we’re discussing), I definitely agree with #2, WRT #3, I invest mostly for the yield, a little bit for the growth, and not at all for the appreciation – so you’re right, we’re probably evaluating for different criteria.
I agree with you about #4, but HOW you determine earnings growth is the kicker. I think you trust the reported numbers more than I do. In an indirect way, I’m using the yield to measure the earnings growth (since, as you say, everything replies on growth). A company that has sustained and increased its dividend for a long period clearly has had good earnings growth.
I agree totally with #5, and certainly didn’t mean it as a “which of these two stocks should I buy” situation (merely a comparison of a “dividend grower” to a non-grower). If I was buying a bank, I’d compare the yields of the banks, if I was buying insurance I’d compare the yields of the insurance. This wouldn’t be the end of the story, but it would be a large part of my decision. Also, yield would factor in to my decision of which sector to be targeting. Banks are out of favour right now with yields much higher then their long-term average, while energy seems to be pretty hot right now with yields below their long-term average. This makes banks more appealing than energy to me (regardless of earning projections of any of the other data).
September 6, 2007 at 9:32 am
Very interesting post and great comments.
Actually Mr. C, I did start a cult and you were the first member (I probably should have told you earlier)
For the record I think earnings growth is more important than current yield for someone who is still working and accumulating their riches (as MG says). However, since I do my dividend stock investing in a leveraged account I need a minimum 3.5% yield so that the stock pays for itself (more or less). Mr. C raises some good points that future earnings growth is not all that certain. If I were to buy dividend stocks with my own money then I would be more willing to buy lower yields.
I suspect you two have more similar philosophies than you think – BMO has a reasonable yield but it’s still very much a dividend grower type of stock. I’m not sure if I would buy NA simply because it’s not that big and for my leveraged plan I want stocks that are as safe as possible.
Mike
September 6, 2007 at 9:36 am
#1 – Now we’re discussing levels of certainty….I can use that to rationalize all my points.
#4 Using yield to measure earnings growth is a mistake IMO. Companies can raise pay out ratios. Use ROC or PFE’s yield to measure EPS growth rate and you’ll see what I mean.
#5 SLF is a ‘non-grower’…..you have high expectations, they’ve only grown their dividend at a CAGR of over 16% since 2000.
September 6, 2007 at 9:51 am
MG: #1 That’s why I specifically outlined what I meant by the different likelihoods (either camp can make up numbers to support their perspective). I feel confident that BMO will very likely continue pay their dividend (your opinion on the matter may differ). I’m very skeptical of any projections (dividend growth or otherwise) people are making about a stock, and because I’m skeptical, I don’t base my buying decisions on them
#2 Yield is a bad way to measure growth, unfortunately (IMHO), all the other ways are worse.
#3 I agree, but historically SLF was considered a grower (I could be wrong, but I’m quite sure I’ve read that). That’s my whole point, we’ll only know who the grower / non-growers are in retrospect, so buying “growers” is like chasing performance.
September 6, 2007 at 9:58 am
#1 I agree but you have to realize that there are reasons why yields are very high. There is no ‘free lunch’. If it seems to good to be true it usually is.
#2 IMO there are way too many other factors that are valuable in estimating growth that you have discounted. Nothing is certain, that’s what makes a market, and makes it investing..
SLF is a grower…and by buyiing high yield stocks based on high yield alone you ARE chasing performance…
September 6, 2007 at 10:12 am
I agree completely with #1, I understand where you’re coming from with #2 and I disagree with your third point (if anything I think I’m chasing under performance).
I’ll look forward to your post on the topic
.
September 6, 2007 at 10:17 am
Thanks for your post…good fun…:)
September 8, 2007 at 1:04 am
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